Lessons from Olivia de Recat, Illustrator and Writer
Hi everyone and welcome to our latest interview installation. Today's interview is one of the conversations about creativity that I've enjoyed the most as part of this podcast and maybe even in my life. It’s s with someone that I've admired for such a long time and I'm so lucky to be welcoming Olivia de Recat to the podcast. For those of you who don't know Olivia, it's very likely that you've previously seen her work in the New Yorker, Rumpus or Narrative magazine. She's a comic illustrator and writer for the New Yorker and she has been a cornerstone of the humor section of the New Yorker since she published her first piece.
Her humor shines through in this conversation, but she also talks about important considerations for those starting projects, like managing new projects while at your day job, setting goals from the start and how those change form as you grow and learn, and about her upcoming book which I'm really excited for.
As always for these interviews, I've written up a summary of her lessons here:
Lesson 1: Owning your Mediocrity
“Don’t let your mediocrity, which we all have, stop you from making things. Yeah, there are people who are savants and who are brilliant, but most of us are just humans”
Olivia embraces naturally a growth mindset by adopting the idea that we shouldn’t let fears of being just “okay” at something stop us from pursuing new works.
How I’ve thought about applying this lesson: For me, this means trying to write about subjects where I may not feel like the definitive expert, such as music. I may lack the technical terms, but through reading from other excellent writers on music (Hanif Abdurraqib comes to mind) and putting myself out there, I can develop my own unique takes.
Potential exercise for you: Is there anything you have been avoiding thinking you just aren’t good at it? Maybe your friends say you’re funny and you’ve thought about doing standup but feel that you couldn’t do it on stage. Give yourself 30 minutes and a lot of grace to just start that first draft – whether its writing, sketching, making jokes, or trying out your own DJ set.
Lesson 2: Set Generous Goals
“A generous and simple goal for me is that I’m able to celebrate and enjoy the work.”
Beyond specific ambitions and manifestations, Olivia had the goal when writing her new book to enjoy talking about it and feel good about the work.
How I’ve thought about applying this lesson: Beyond worrying about how many articles I write or podcasts I make or how much engagement I get, I have the goal of being proud of the research I put into my interviews to make the end results more interesting. Being able to do this while working full time is something I want to continue to be proud of.
Potential exercise for you: When starting a project, I do recommend setting tangible goals – both stretch and achievable goals. But even before doing that – think about a generous goal for yourself and write it down somewhere to come back to when you need a reminder of why you started.
Lesson 3: It’s okay to have a day job - it may even be helpful
“Having less time seems like a deficit, but it can actually work to your advantage because you can get really, really clear about what’s important to you and what you want to work on. ”
Olivia found her success while still working a day job and found that the hour constraints actually helped her be more focused during the time she could dedicate to writing and illustrating.
How I’ve thought about applying this lesson: Hearing this for me was reassuring that it’s possible to find creativity in the few free hours we get. In fact, it’s helped me be more specific and actionable about how I will utilize that time.
Potential exercise for you: Try to allocate your time in a meaningful way. It’s best to set specific hours for when you plan on doing the work. For me this is Sunday mornings for 2 hours. Anything on top of that is a cherry on top, but I find having these dedicated hours helps me find the work much more manageable.
Full Interview Transcript:
Jack: Well, I'll start us off if you could take me through your background particularly going up to the point where you decided, okay, I like writing, I like drawing. I want to take this from something I enjoy doing to something I do for my work.
Olivia: Sure. So I never thought I would be an illustrator, a cartoonist, I always wanted to write. That was my goal from really, really early on as a kid. And it just all sort of happened kind of in a very, very random and charmed way when I look back on it. Yeah, I was working out of college. I was working as an assistant. I had several years of working as an assistant in Hollywood. It was a very interesting job. I was super bad at it. I can hardly, you know, assist myself in my administrative tasks. And so doing it for another person was very, very difficult, especially some high powered people. Okay.
Jack: But was it in the film industry?
Olivia: It was I'm from the Seattle area. After college, I moved out to Los Angeles and started working at CAA the talent agency and I worked for an agent in the motion picture literary department. And I was his second assistant assistant and yeah, I just sucked at it. I was terrible and everyone knew I was bad and every morning I was like, I'm going to get fired today. And for some reason, every morning I was spared. Every day I was spared, but it was at that job that I actually started drawing because it was a way of stress relief for me.
And I just found like the whole hollywood complex, very, very jarring, obviously not growing up in that. And being exposed to it for the first time and kind of absurd. And so I would draw these kind of weird little non-sequitur like things, and I would scan them, cause I had a scanner at my desk and I was supposed to be using for like scanning client money. And I would send them to my friend who was in her first desk job in San Francisco and she would caption them. It was like this little seedling of cartooning that was sort of evolving.
This is probably like, like 2013, 2014. And yeah, so, then from there I went on to work at the late late show with James Corden and I was an assistant there still drawing kind of on the side. But I really thought I want to be a writer and I want to try to write for the show. And that was kind of like my goal for a while there. And then I ended up making friends with the head writer at that show. And she really believed in me and really baked me up. I showed her some of my cartoons and then she was able to connect me with the New Yorker. Now I'm like, what question did you ask me?
But yeah, that's how I got my shot. It was just through like meeting people and it was very random and wasn't something like, I didn't, I didn't think to myself when I was in college or when I was getting my degree, I want to be in an illustrator.
I want to do this for a living. I want to draw for a living. It never occurred to me until it did.
Jack: I'm curious when you showed the head writer, what were you thinking when you showed her? Did you think at that point, the stuff was developed enough saying do you think I could do something with this?
Or was it more , Hey, you know, I've been working on this funny thing on the side because it's pretty fortuitous to go from that to the New Yorker and in a quick time.
Olivia: Yeah. I didn't really know, like at that point, I was just sort of desperate. Like, it wasn't really an actual desperate situation, but you know, when, when you're in it, you feel like this is my life, right?
These, these huge big feelings in your twenties of like, who am I and what am I going to be? And so it felt so urgent. Like I have to show her these things and I don't know what's going to happen, but I just must, you know, because I'm so kind of at odds and, and nervous and anxious about my future. And I don't want to be an assistant forever and all these feelings right. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't think I did it with much confidence, but I did it with like a desperation. I would say that was the energy. But hopefully I hid it well enough and she was like, these are really cool. And she knew that the editor at the time, the humor and cartoon editor there. And she was like, oh, I'll show these to her next time I get lunch with her. And I was like, sure, you will. I didn't think she would
Jack: Wow. Wow. That's super cool. And it's funny when you say have these huge big feelings in your twenties, who I am and what I'm going to do, because I think this also comes across in a lot of your writing and in your illustrations,
I re-read before this the letter of recommendation from the person across the hall it is, but it's like so relatable , to that time period of living with a roommate and , What you probably look like in your interior life and in your apartment
Olivia: That was actually the the first written piece that I ever got published, and I remember working on it, I was still working that day job still assisting and I was like, I was so checked out. I was obsessed with finishing this little humor piece. Right. Like it was like everything to me. It was all I could think about. And I just remember shirking, so many of my duties and pulling away writing it. And it's funny now, cause it, it felt so, so big to me at the time. So monumental, but it was in a sense cause you know,
Jack: So the first place you were published then was the New Yorker?
Olivia: No the first place I was published was I'm trying to think if it was the Rumpus or was it Narrative magazine. It was one of those. I think it might've been Narrative magazine. I had like a little gag cartoon about Palm reading. It was a palm reading
Classic.
Jack: Yes.
Olivia: WooWoo yeah.
Jack: Very, very LA in that way. Love it. It is a interesting story. Cause I mean, I think in terms of you're talking about, okay, in college, you didn't really think about this being a career path and then also not super confident, this kind of feeling of desperation. Did you ever go about defining success or, or goals before you started on this journey? Did you do any of that kind of visioning speaking of, of woowoo words?
Olivia: Yeah, I did. And it's funny because I had repurposed this calendar.
Like, you know, to save money. I had like flipped it around and drawn the months on the back of it. And it was also kind of a craft project I had drawn this this calendar for myself and I had left a little space for like goals and I wrote on it I will be published in the New Yorker and I will get paid to write.
And those are my two what are they called? I'm blanking now, not affirmations, but I guess affirmations or manifestation points
And then two months later I was published in the New Yorker, but I don't know. I think it has something to do with the will in those statements. I know this is like manifestation 101 but it didn't feel like an expectation to me. I didn't put the pressure on myself to accomplish it in a certain amount of time.
It was just this sense of I will do everything in my power to get this thing , to accomplish this. And in a sense, I believed it would happen. I did have that belief in myself, even when I had no reason to have it. Again, it's, it's interesting. I've used the word desperation already like seven times
I'm an essentially desperate person, but it did feel that way it did feel like, like I must do this. I must figure this out. And I had like a couple of of avenues and ways that I could go to, a couple of blueprints or maps to get me there, but I was just like, I will do this at some point.
I will do this. I didn't expect it to happen so soon,
Jack: That's super, super amazing that it happened within two months. Very, very well done. But I'm also curious. I mean, I really like that idea of not putting kind of the strict timeline. Jumping ahead to now, is that something you still do? Do you still put these manifestations out, say for example, with your book or are the timelines a bit more strict now that you're like, okay, this is, is my profession?
Olivia: I definitely feel more of a pressure now to just sustain what I've already built. Like stoke the fire, when you discover fire, , it's incredible, right?
When you have that first spark you feel like you're on top of the world and then you feel like you have to continue to feed it. Right. And it can't go out and can't go out. But I also think that's probably a symptom of being still a somewhat new creative person.
Because I think that things do need to die off and become reborn. I think that cyclical nature of things is probably something I need to get used to, but I'm still not fully comfortable with. Because in the beginning, any accomplishment is just radically amazing and just the mere recognition gives you all of this momentum and then at a certain point you feel like you have to, I dunno, reinvent that momentum or find it from a new place because it's not, it's not necessarily new in the way it was. Yeah, it's kind of hard to explain. I don't know. I think everybody has those issues.
Once you reach a certain milestone, then you have to deal with, or then you have to learn how to integrate all of the classic creative hurdles, like Comparison collaboration how to monetize your personal magic or whatever it is. All of these other things come into play that weren't there before, because all you cared about was just starting the fire, that's all.
It's kind of interesting. It's a new place to be.
Jack: Is there anything that you do, maybe certain rituals or habits that you have to sustain the fire to keep that metaphor going to get you in the zone?
Olivia: Well, I write like every morning,. I probably won't be the first person to mention Julia Cameron and The Artist's Way. Or maybe I am the first person.
everyone else who mentions it is copying me. The Artist's Way it's sort of almost become a cliche, a creative cliche at this point, but, cliches are around for a reason because they're often true and vital and important. And so that book helped me just hone a ritual of writing every morning and really, I think helps get me in a place where I understand where I want to go and what's on my mind and maybe what's irking me or what I'm anxious about. A lot of anxiety in those pages just about creative direction or just everything in life. But I think that helps kind of clear out anything that's sort of on the mind that's inhibiting me creatively. And, , I sometimes will do affirmations or you know manifestation statements in my writing. Occasionally I'll do that. And. Yeah, they've changed now over time.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah. Can't keep the same ones, I guess, once you've already been published in the New Yorker and then I also want to go back and revisit something because I think there's a lot of people probably like you who started maybe doing this on the side of their desk job their day job.
What would you recommend to those people who are still have to keep some sort of day job? They're still trying to balance their actual work with something that they want to become their work. Was there any sort of habits that you put in place back then to make sure you we're still writing still illustrating while you had all this other work going on?
Olivia: Yeah, I'd say let, let your day job or whatever it is in a sense, almost like fuel you, which sounds counterintuitive.
Jack: That's interesting.
Olivia: But sometimes there's that old adage of like constraints help with creativity. Like the more rules there are, the more creative often become. And I think that that can really be true, having less time seems like a deficit, but it can actually work to your advantage because you can get really, really clear about what's important to you and what you want to work on. It allows you some, some structure. I think it's just in reframing it because no matter what you're going to have hurdles and difficulties like now I have, I found myself once I quit my day job with all the time in the world. And that was terrifying, right. At the beginning, Very, very, very scary. So any scenario can be either daunting or invigorating depending on how you look at it. But I do understand that creative struggle and that day-to-day struggle of where does the time go and how can I get more of it?
And that's hard, but it can also give you momentum. And you can, you can be creative in how you use your time as well as what you're actually making.
Jack: It's interesting you brought that up. I spoke to Abra Berens who's a cookbook writer a few weeks ago for this project.
And she also said something very similar around, how important creative restrictions are for her, which I thought was really interesting. And also with recipes, you know, That to me, maybe just because I'm not as good of a cook as I think I am like, I don't know how you could place restrictions and, and create some interesting recipes, but yeah, she said the same thing and I think that's something that's been surprising to me, along the way.
Olivia: Yeah.
Jack: And then I also wanted to ask about the book, because I did read about that on your website. And I'm looking here at my notebook full of notes too as I'm is still old fashioned in that way. But how did you decide that you were ready to write a book? Obviously you had a great start, you've been writing for a few years for the New Yorker now. What made you say, okay now is the right time to put something together that's a bit bigger and maybe more permanent.
Olivia: I don't know if I actually felt ready at any point.
I don't think I've ever felt ready for anything. I'm like a really very cautious person at heart, and I'm pretty, typically pretty anxious leaning.
And so I've learned, I just kind of have to jump into things. Like that the anticipation of something is actually worse than the actual doing of it. I think a lot of people are like that actually, maybe more than more than not, but, to be honest, like it was kind of like suggested to me to write a book. People were like, you should write a book. And I know that's probably not the best answer to be like, because people wanted me to,
yeah. I don't know. I was encouraged to do it and it did feel like the logical next step in my career. And honestly like, Now I feel like I have projects or ideas snowballing off of the book I just wrote that feel more like they come more from an energy or a drive within me. The book I just finished, I'm so proud of, and I, I love it so much. But it wasn't something that I necessarily felt compelled to do. And I think that's a really good lesson. I mean, we'll see what happens with it. But you know, I'd love to say that, like I just woke up one morning and I knew and the vision was there, but it was a slog and it was hard.
But I'm glad I did it. And I don't know if that answers the question
Jack: It does. And it's funny , I do think you're right that a lot of people are that way. Even before this interview this morning, I was doing a bunch of notes again, rewriting my questions. And I was like, am I actually ready even for a conversation.
So I can imagine that feeling times a hundred for a book. But when you talk about this idea of being compelled to do it I imagine then there were probably some days with the book or for other projects that you've done where it's like pulling teeth or, , you have moments where you have writer's block.
How do you push through those moments? Is it through the same practice of writing every day? Or are there other ways you get through those days?
Olivia: I don't mean to like, be a Nike slogan, but you kind of just do it, you know, like I wish that it was more heroic sounding, but at least with the, this first book, like, I was just like, well, here we are. Here I am. I feel like absolute shit and everything I'm doing is shitty and the world is shitty and I'm shitty and this project is shitty, but I will do it because I said I would. And like a lot of days that was just how it was. I just I felt really like I wrote the book in a very, during the pandemic, first of all I had some health complications during it. I had just gone through a breakup and I was writing about love. It was the perfect storm of I don't want to do this, but I think , It's that old addage if you just arrive at your workstation or wherever, whatever it is, if it's like, you know, to the page or you get in your car and go, go to work and you and you just try to like, be present for it.
I think that that helps. Trying to just live in the day itself rather than the enormity of all that something will require. Cause if you live in that future place or like that past place, it's so painful. The present is also painful. I won't say that like in the moment of creating is sometimes like for me during, it was physically painful to write this book because I had herniated a disc in my neck and arm.
You know, numb or like shooting pain. But like, yeah, I just keep going, like, and I think that that's like a really, really key creative component that isn't always talked about is that kind of like grit and that forthrightness where you just decide that you're just going to keep moving despite what's happening around you or inside of you
Jack: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And amazing to hear. I mean, you don't often think of the occupational hazards of writing, but with a herniated disc. Oh, that sounds terrible to sit at the computer all day
Olivia: It's a very modern affliction. And people are in much, much more painful positions or have much less resources than I had , and create incredible things. But I think that sometimes those setbacks can help you in the long run. Like, I dunno, I don't know if that's true or not, if I'm just trying to look on the bright side of it, but
That was, what was you have to, in this instance,
Jack: it does kind of seem like something a bit out of one of your comics. You know, it's like trying to write a book, all while dealing with this. I'm sure inspired some, some things in your book. That's awesome. And it comes out this, this summer, right?
Olivia: Yeah. It comes out in July.
Jack: And have you thought about going back to some of these manifestations or the goals, have you set any goals for July, how you want the book to be received or what you want to see from the book out in the world?
Olivia: Well, when I was writing it, or even before, when I sold it, I was really focused on , I want to sell, you know, I want to sell I want my book to earn out and I want it to be praised and for people to love it. And then, and, you know, by way of that, love me, please love me. Again, with the desperation.
Jack: I was going to call it out, but then I thought
Olivia: No I got there. Don't worry. I'm painfully self-aware. But now of course I still want people to love it and I still want people to love me. Like, let's be real.
Jack: Yeah, of course, of course.
Olivia: But like, generous goal for me and a simple goal, I think is that I'm able to to celebrate it and enjoy you know, like, like this, enjoy talking about it with people and feel proud. It's not my inclination to feel proud or to feel excitement over things. And a very, very simple goal for me is to just enjoy it and to allow myself to feel excited and proud.
And then whatever else happens is just kind of the extra cherry on top But yeah, I want people to love it. I want people to buy it.
Jack: I'll buy it. I promise.. I think, I think both of those goals are equally valid and important. I am curious too, this is more of a craft or tone question, but in our conversation today, I do think you are very funny and I think you have a good sense of humor, but I think oftentimes people and maybe, cause I think I'm funny at times but anytime I try and write, , it's just so depressing. It's really dark all the time. But I find your writing so, so funny and, and concise, you know when looking at some of the writings that you've done for the New Yorker, I'm curious if you always had an easy time, injecting so much of your voice into those pieces or how you brought some of that humor and levity into yourpieces, especially about ones that are about breakups or like how shitty dating is. I think you do such a great job at hitting on some of those issues while also still keeping it very light and funny and something that people want to share with their friends.
Olivia: Hm how do you make sad things I mean, the fact that you think that is, is like the highest compliment one could ever give because I mean, that's just the goal, right? Like to see the humor and the absurdity in everything. I do think that that's something , that you can both hone, but also is innate to some people. I think most cartoonists have that gene or that that skillset cause you have to be pithy. And I'm certainly not the best at it. Like a single panel cartoon is very, very difficult for me to accomplish. it's like a little pop of magic. But I think that, humor has always been like a coping mechanism for me from a very young age in dealing with things that were emotionally distressing or hard, or just the business of growing up. And I learned that pretty quickly that , if I could find a way to make it funny, it would feel like it was all right. And I think that a lot of, I think that that's just where it comes from. It comes from actually a really young place, like a place of seventh grade me just figuring out how to kind of like survive, being a kid and a person. And so that's where I would say comes from.
Jack: Yeah, it definitely shows. And I'm glad, I'm glad you see it as a, as a high compliment because I do. I just find that it's a skill that I think is really hard to, to hone.
And then I guess it does come come naturally in some ways, but I'm sure through your work it's, it's been a lot of hard work as well, but I always very impressed by people who are able to do that. I also wanted to kind of ask a few rapid fire questions about some of your specific pieces, more just about your opinions on which I don't normally do that we can also, we don't have to, you don't have to do like right away, quick responses. Don't worry. It won't be to rapid fire hot seat.
First off, as a person who moved from Seattle to LA, what are your least favorite and favorite parts of LA I should have started with favorite and then least favorite since you've been there for awhile.
Olivia: No no let's start with the shitty thing.
Jack: Exactly. And no traffic. Traffic can't be a least favorite. Sorry.
Olivia: I actually don't mind traffic. I really love being in a car.
Jack: Really?
Olivia: Favorite places to be. Yeah. I love driving. Okay. Yeah. I love driving. I mean, that is actually one of my favorite parts of, of being in LA is the time spent in the car.
It's a very, very unpopular opinion, but it's like a little room, you know, it's a room that moves and you get to observe everyone in their little rooms and you become a different person when you're alone in a room, but you get to see other people alone in their little rooms, like come on it's fucking amazing. , I don't love sitting in traffic. I sound like a complete crazy person. But I do like the commuter that it's spread out. What else do I like about LA? I love the ocean. I love that and I love the sun. Like, honestly, sun's great. I grew up in Seattle we didn't see a lot of it. And that was huge. It's very simple. Very true. Love waking up and seeing the sun. And what I don't like about it not enough lakes, not enough natural lakes. I love a lake and a river. . Not enough, in
my opinion.
Jack: I'm from Michigan. So I'm with you there I'm a big, big lake person.
No that has nothing to do with the creative process. I was more of a selfish question since I think all my friends are slowly starting to move out to LA from New York. So I'm just seeing if it makes sense.
I love the food scene. So that's an, that's an easy sell for me.
Olivia: Great.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah. Great people watching, which I'm sure is good inspiration for, for your work too. Oh, for sure. Okay. Next question. Revisiting Timothy Chalemet which we started off with, is he your biggest celebrity crush or is there someone above or is he not even really on the Pantheon of celebrity crushes?
Olivia: No, I'd say like, yeah, he's definitely there. He's like leading the pack probably. He's also just like fun to reference for me. He's very accessible as a celebrity. Like, you know, in the zeitgeists and in your personal zeitgeists like, he's very omnipresent he's floating about yeah, I think he's just, I think he's just a delight, an absolute delight, and I don't see him ever becoming anything less than a delight.
Jack: That is a high compliment
Olivia: Yeah, I really do. I really think he's just lovely
Jack: yes. Well maybe he will listen to this here . But I agree. I would agree with your, with your assessment. Definitely one of my celebrity crushes as well. Okay. On pasta shapes,
Olivia: Pasta.
Jack: This is from your, your obscure pasta shapes. But I'm curious if you have a favorite pasta shape, whether real or obscure.
I'm just asking this also, because I just came back from living in Italy for, for several months. So
Olivia: Well lucky you
Jack: yeah, exactly. Had plenty of pasta.
Olivia: What part of Italy?
Jack: I was in Rome. I was working in Rome. Yeah. Truly only ate pasta there are no other options in Rome, so no international food.
Olivia: It's a good option to have. I'm partial to rigatoni. I love the sturdiness of a rig. I mean, I'm Italian, on my mom's side and my grandma makes like the most amazing homemade pasta.
Jack: Wow. That's amazing.
Olivia: So I love a manacotti that that's not like a pasta shape, but it's you know, adjacent.
Jack: Yeah. Perfect. Perfect.
Olivia: Can I say my least favorite? I find bow ties very offensive. I think they're too, like there there's too many angles and you can't cook itright.Because the middle is always going to stay very aldente but like offensively and then the bowtie spreads and the ends become like somewhat floppy and soft and it's very. I don't like the bowtie
Jack: I wonder if that's even really Italian. We should Google that.
Olivia: It feels not Italian, but it doesn't feel like also for holding sauce. The practicality of it doesn't really work with.
Jack: I liked this indictment of the bow tie. I would say my favorite also. You had the Milfaldine I liked the mafalda the original. That's probably my favorite just because my friend and I used to do impressions of random things. And oftentimes I would do like a little Mafalda impression and he knew what it was.
It's a good inside joke. So that's, I the pasta shape one really spoke to me.
Olivia: That was a collaboration actually. I didn't write that I just drew it. Colin Stokes and Ella Winter
Jack: yeah, I love that one. It was very funny and the drawings were excellent. Okay. Do you use your emojis on Venmo? If so, which ones you use most commonly. I'm really going back early.
Olivia: Now the Venmo thing I am now like a really boring Venmo user and I've set everything to private and I am like a dad. And I just write the plain description of what it is. I need to infuse more creativity into my Venmo transactions. It's one more place where you can just have fun and let loose and I'm being so dry and boring about it. That's the honest truth. I mean, in real life, I love any of the , smiley emojis in their variations.
Yeah, I love emojis. I have, I tried to sell this thing to the New Yorker that was like hottest emojis where I went through and rated all the emojis in terms of their hotness and describe why they were hot. Surprisingly, they didn't want it.
Jack: I like it. I would say for me, the hottest emoji is the one that is like the dollar signs with the tongue sticking out. That is also a dollar sign.
Olivia: That is a high key emoji why is that one hot to you?
Jack: I think that one is, is very like, you know, fits in with my New York sugar daddy fantasy like a fantasy that you'll never really never really going to go after. But it's there.
Yeah, I use it often. Yeah. But mostly when my friends get like, you know, a tip at work or something like that Okay. And then the last, last question in the rapid round is what is your favorite thing to, to draw?
Olivia: I like drawing faces. I like drawing people and specifically faces though like I actually don't really like drawing bodies I'm kind of bad at it, but yeah, I love, I love drawing faces. I had this project that I've kind of tabled but like, I, I still really love where I draw like a face and then I try to find the person online who like, looks like the face.
Jack: It's amazing. Some of them are so good. Like people, the matches that you have in the website, I was like, Woah!
Olivia: I don't know what that is. Like, I don't know whether it's. I dunno. I just love it so much. , I love how, a small little tweak of a line can totally change the personality of a face when you draw it. So faces.
Jack: I love that. And I love the self portrait. One that you have both on your Instagram and your website. I think that one's really cute and simple. I figured faces was going to be the answer when I looked at the accidental portraits, but I had to be sure. I think my last big question for you before, closing this out is. If you have any other advice, let's say, even for me and starting this project, or for someone else who maybe is an assistant at a film film studio, or who wants to do something creative, whatever that may be on their own how you might advise going about those things or any other great advice that you got in your life
Olivia: I remember when I first started drawing or first started trying to get published and drawing cartoons, a cartoonist for the new Yorker, he'd been doing it for awhile he looked at my cartoons and he was like, so you're not very good drawing, but you're not a bad drawer but you have the ideas and you're funny.
And it's not really about the craft necessarily that you can work on, but continue to sort of hone your voice and what you find funny. It was very simple advice and in a humbling criticism, which I was expecting I'm not like a very good technical drawer though I've gotten better over the years. But certainly if you scroll all the way back to post number one on the gram, woof,
I'd say don't let your mediocrity, which we all have stop you from making things. Because yeah, there are people out there who are savants and who are brilliant, but most of us are just humans, same as everyone else.
And I think within that, leaning into the things that make you different or you're sort of embarrassed about, or maybe feel too true or too tender. I'd say that that's something that I was always encouraged to do and try to do as often as possible. And I think everyone's work can benefit from it.
Jack: Wow. That's great advice. And I love that phrase, don't let your mediocrity stop you. I don't think I've ever heard it put that way, but , I really like it because I think that is what a lot of people are afraid of. And I mean, in all of your answers today. I love that. You're just super honest about a lot of these insecurities or, , the self-awareness around being insecure that is super refreshing. So I really appreciate you sharing those thoughts. It's just been so nice to talk.
Olivia: Thanks, Jack has been great, great chatting
Jack: Yes and definitely I would love to to connect whether for another little catch-up interview or just informally after the book comes out, I definitely will let you know what I think, but would love to hear how you're feeling and revisit some of these answers in terms of how it actually turned out.
And if you've hit some of those goals that you were, that you were looking for.
Olivia: I'll let you know if people finally love me.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah. I, well, I I've loved you through this conversation, so you have one fan.
Olivia: All I need.
Jack: Yeah, exactly. Right. I think that's all we're really seeking for So, thanks again.
Olivia: Well, you're a great interviewer. You're really great at it. Thank you so much. You made me feel very comfortable. So I wish you the best of luck. I think you're great.
Jack: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that because I was so excited to do this interview and it was really fun for me to just go through and read all of your stuff and change into incognito mode and out of incognito mode to get the New Yorker, because I ran out of my $4. I ran out of my cheap subscription and then I canceled it classically, which is it's expensive, kind of a Dick move of me though, to be honest, because I'm like, I want to support other creatives.
Olivia: I know but it's like also the big it's the big. It's not just the individuals. It's like you're feeding the big machine to , which is not bad
Jack: Yeah yeah. I definitely have to get it again. I think also because my roommates were like, I was really bad at putting them in recycling. I'm like, but doesn't it make us look so sophisticated if we have the New Yorker out and he's like, yeah, but not like 30 past copies, I think. Fall 2018.
Olivia: Yeah. And they're like crinkled and lake water log, like a glass rings on them, you know,
Jack: rats chew through half of it in New York, so,
Olivia: yeah. Yeah. Are you from, where are you from?
Jack: Yeah, so I live in New York now from Michigan originally, but I live in New York city. Yeah. I live in Brooklyn cool. Yeah. So if you ever come out to Brooklyn, let me know for the, for the book launch or something, I would love to get coffee and a chat in person, but it's, it's been so nice to, to chat and I think going to it be something that really people love to hear too, because it's, you are very funny in these responses to questions that you didn't know beforehand, which I'm impressed by.
Olivia: Very nice to say that I, yeah, I'm like new to the interview thing though. I interviewed a bunch of people my book, but which is why I'm impressed by your interview skills, because you're much more on task. I get very strewn about blown with the wind. But yeah I'm excited to be able to talk to you. It's like, you know, it's actually like new for me to do interviews.
Jack: Yeah. Be on the flip side, it's kind of weird.
Olivia: It is kind of weird but fun fun.
Jack: Good, good. Yeah. If I just treat it , oh my God, I'm talking to this super cool person today. Like the real me I'm like, no, no, no, this is, this is my job. You know, very serious.
Olivia: Well, you probably got into this conversation and we're like, oh, she's not cool at all.
Jack: No, no, no.
Olivia: That's part of it and yeah, I love it.
Jack: I am also saying that, you know, as like inherently cool. I know you can't win
Olivia: well, thanks Jack
Jack: thank you. And have a great day.
Jack: Thanks once again, to Olivia and be on the lookout for her book this summer. I know that it's going to be a masterpiece, so I'm really excited and hope everyone here pre-orders it as well. I'm also going to resubscribe to the New Yorker for her alone. So hope, hope you look to do the same if you're like me and canceled your subscription. You can also find her at oliviaderecat.com or at her Instagram @Drawingolive. Next week, we have a new, exciting interviewee in the visual space, which I think you'll enjoy. And we hope to see you back then on the creation stories podcast.
