Ten Lessons from Ten Creatives - A Creativity Masterclass on how to Boost Creativity!
Hello everyone and welcome back to yet another episode of the Creation Stories Media Podcast. For this podcast I am doing something a little bit different as I go back through and soak in the lessons I've learned in the first ten episodes of the podcast and revisit some of what I hope you have all gained from the podcast. As any creative type knows reflection and really mining into your own psyche can be so helpful in the creative process but for me with the podcast it's a way to really honor the impact that the guests I've had so far on my time on the show have had on me.
For today's episode I've selected a segments of the podcast that have been meaningful to me and we'll hear some of those and my own reflections on them throughout. If this podcast has helped with your own learning at all please feel free to reach out to me directly at jack@creationstoriesmedia.com as some of you have already done, it's been so meaningful to me or you can reach out to me on instagram @creationstoriesmedia.
Full Interview Transcript:
Apologies, as always, for any typos / grammar errors in transcription - cons of a one man shop :)
Jack: Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of the creation stories media podcast. For this podcast, I'm doing something a little bit different as I go back through and soak in some of the lessons that I've learned in the first 10 episodes of the podcast and revisit some of what I hope you all have gained from the podcast, as well. As any creative type knows, we've been told to reflect and really mine into our own experiences because it's so helpful for the creative process and hoping that in doing so here, I can not only find some new learnings from our guests, but also think about what we want for the podcast in the future. So of course welcome any feedback always feel free to reach out on Instagram at @creationstoriesmedia, and you can also email me directly at jack@creationstoriesmedia.com
Feel free to share potential future guests, any thoughts on the podcast, what inspired you and look forward to hearing some of your thoughts as we go through .
For today's podcast. I went back through and looked at some of the original episodes and thought about some different quotes and relisten to episodes and thought about what jumped out at me differently. Now that I've listened to it a second time around, given that I've done the editing to the show too.
It's a bit of a painful experience at times to hear my own voice so much. It's been such a treat to go listen and think about the many meaningful conversations I've had. And so today's episode is really about honoring the guests who have just taken the time to share their creativity with us and really to you to thank all of those folks who have listened along the way.
With that in mind, let's get started. I want to start by going back to our first ever episode with chef and cookbook author, Abra Berens abra agreed to be a guest on this show long before we had any guests, and I'm really honored by her taking the time to have come on, but also really touched by some of her lessons.
One of the things that has continued to inspire me through the podcast is her ability to root her goals outside of herself, and outside of external validation, obviously selling the cookbook was important to her and her cookbooks, Ruffage and Grist, but I think what's more interesting is that she was really doing it in a way to honor the folks who had participated along the way, whether it was the farmers who helped produce some of the materials that were then photographed for Ruffage and Grist or whether it was really the editor as a publisher who helped make sure that she was getting her book in on time and in a way that would sit well with the audience. I think her unique perspective of wanting to be seen as treating those folks who contributed to her work with respect was something that shows her commitment to community.
And I thought that was something really special considering her cookbooks are also rooted in community of the community where she grew up in Michigan and. As someone who also comes from Michigan, I have enjoyed this perspective in her cookbooks. So I want to first begin with a clip from Abra.
Jack: First just, if you I'm imagining again that you experienced some self doubt through the publishing process, you're putting this together and how you overcome that to the point where you were actually able to put something out. Cause I think that's where a lot of my friends who are creative, they start with something, they start a new cool project and then self-doubt just totally shuts them down.
And so I'm curious if, if you have any advice for that situation.
Abra: I don't myself. Doubt came after it was turned in and I couldn't affect it anymore. So there's like a really sinister, like six month period in the publishing process where everything is turned in, but like, you can't do anything and it's not out yet, so you can't get any validation. So I would say that the biggest thing is learning how to self assess.
So you know, It doesn't really matter the outside validation, if you believe it's a good thing to put into the world. And that requires being honest with yourself that like, if it's not good enough, then it's not good enough, you know, but balancing that with a perfectionism LSF, I think that's a lifelong, you know, thing to learn.
But I also think it's about like, figuring out why you're doing it, you know? So like the self-doubt for me, Is mitigated by the why I want to do it. What's the benefit to other people. You know, and people often say that like, if you're feeling depressed or like the world is falling apart, like do something for someone else.
And it often. Right that course. I also think that as much as possible, you know, for me, again, this is a little bit of my naivety. I wrote most of roughage on my couch in December of 2018. I'm sorry, 2017. And so I didn't really think about. Anybody else reading it. It was like a purely private exercise. And then with Chris, it was harder to get to that mindset.
And so, and I also think that like forcing flow you know, I would say half of rough edge was written in that last month of December because I had started the job at greener. I was, ah, I was only a nine month employee to start. So I was done December 1st until March 1st. And And I was on deadline.
So I, you know, I had to write, like I wrote like three or four chapters a day. And you get to this point where you're like, it's like, I go back sometimes and I read essays that were written in that, and I don't remember writing them. And there's so many favorite ones. So it's a little flowers for Algernon situation.
So I think figuring out how to like craft that or cultivate that even if it's artificial is really.
Jack: I really like the, the piece about just thinking about doing it for other people. . If you have some value beyond just like the external validation makes it easier.
And that goes back to kind of the self-assessment before you decided what success looks like.
Jack: The thing I love about this quote is the way that Abrah approaches self doubt and these really pernicious thoughts by rooting it outside herself and not in a way that is seeking external validation. As you see from her quote it's. Obviously it's such a, a true and real grip that, you know, book sales, if you're a cookbook author might have.
But I think remembering the why as, as Abra mentions is so important. And I think what she's also mentioning is just thinking about what is the benefit to other people. And I reflected on this, on the blog, on my website, www.creationstoriesmedia.com, because I thought it was super powerful to think about, why do we do any sort of creative work, whether that is doing this podcast.
And I think as I started off, it was something that was super powerful to me to think about. This isn't so I can get so many followers or subscribers on any sort of platform, but really to share the learnings of creatives with other people, but also just to learn myself and use it as a channel to have interesting conversations with people like Abrah and this podcast.
Such an inspiration to me personally, because it's also just showed the time that creatives are willing to give , and engage and share their learnings. I think having a creative community is so important in terms of fostering growth in yourself and encourage folks to seek that out.
Of course, as someone who is an ardent goal-setter I think it was good that I've used this podcasts also as a way to challenge how we think about goals and objectives. And I always like to ask my guests what they define successes at the beginning of a project or at the beginning of their careers, because I think it can look so different and change as you go grow as an artist or creative.
And it's so important for me to hear. What are the things that they kind of were hoping for themselves. So as to understand what to set out for our own self and our own creative journeys, one thing I really liked about April's journeys that she definitely did these visioning exercises and. I think also connects to some of the work that she talks about in honoring the folks that she worked with.
And so she actually set her goals around that. But it wasn't, without some quantitative goals, like the financial success or emotional success, but noting the different ways you can measure success. And so I'll hand it back to the conversation with Abra to expand on this a bit.
Jack: I am curious, obviously, as you brought up or refer to huge, press accolades pretty early on. And I think that's probably not, I don't know. I'm assuming maybe not what you expected and I'd love to,
before you went out and you're putting this book into the world. Did you have a definition of success? What success might look like for you?
Abra: Yeah, it's a really good question because I think it's really important for people to think about that. And it's another thing I took from Zingerman's, which is how do you measure this?
You know, if you're going to do something, how do you measure it? And so it's part of their like open book, finance, chaining, and all those things. And so for me I wrote down a list of like, what are my benchmarks for success? And and that could be, you know, qualitative or quantitative. And, and so I'm one of the benchmarks for success was that roughage would be.
Successful enough either financially or emotionally that Chronicle would want to do another book together. And so that is that was a great thing for that. And. I think it's really important for people to think about, you know, I'm trying to think of like how to best illustrate this point, but, you know, there's lots of different ways to measure success, you know?
And I think again, not to like be in the like, singer. Fan-girl camp. Although I clearly am you know, they have three different bottom lines that they measure all of their decisions again. So there's great food, great service and great finance. And if a decision is justifiable along any two of those three lines, then it's a second.
And so or they, they do it, you know? And so for me, it was like, I want roughage to be financially viable, to want to do another book or like commercially viable enough to do another book. I, and then I was like, I want everyone who worked on the team to create it, to feel like their work was a. Well represented B that there, they, as contributors were respected and now that they would want to come back and work on it again.
And and that was also a hundred percent of success because everyone who worked on roughage is now working on grist and the fruit books. And so that was great. I, with some of the other ones were, I mean, it was also like, You know, beyond NPR,
Deon, Terry Gross. And I like that didn't happen. But at the same time, you know, the idea that like a non-celebrity chef from the Midwest, who's writing a book about vegetables. Who's never written a book before was, you know, part of the new Yorkers holiday Roundup and the New York times is like, Yeah, it's crazy.
You know, like, yeah. And I feel so privileged to be in that position because there are so many people who are significantly better chefs than writers than I am who maybe don't have access in that way. So it's a, it's a constant sort of sense of feeling. Very grateful
for those things.
Jack: Again, just really fascinated with her obsession and motivation by community. And I think it's actually informed how I approach my podcasts in a different way in order to think about what are the creative communities that this artist is engaging with, or this person, and also thinking about what are the spaces and communities that are conducive for these folks and what might we be able to take from that?
Even if we don't come from the same community, if we don't have the same set-up. But to leverage the own communities around us to serve as motivators or as inspiration. And so I certainly have used that in the form of Abra and continue to do so with my other guests. As I grow to understand what space means to them creatively.
My second podcast guest, and I'll apologize because the audio quality is less than a fantastic as I was in Nairobi for work at the time. But more importantly, I think the lessons that McKeel Haggerty shares, who is a businessman who runs Hagerty international, a insurance platform for vintage and classic cars and which recently went public and former global chairman of the young presidents organization.
He shared so many important lessons that he actually learned through interviewing. And so really fortunate to be able to share some back here with you. One story that I did want to go back to with McKeel, is some of his quotes about what success looked like for him in terms of goals in a business context, because you might think they'd be more financial in nature, but McKeel shares what actually mattered to him.
And I think it's has an interesting lens on what we think about when we think about entrepreneurship but also just being a leader at large.
Jack: what was your initial definition of success? If you remember, what did you set any certain goals of what it might
look like?
Well, I've never been financial in by nature. It's great to make money, but I just, I don't have a finance background, so I don't think of life that way. I don't like graph out things. I don't, I, I look at business as in life, like peeling an onion, like finding more, meaning, finding more layers of value. And so for me, it's like, it's always been about this process of discovery.
If I could go back to them and talk to that 1995 liter and say like, don't waste your time on. I would not have thought I spent years being very competitive. I felt like I was in a competitive competing for business environment rather than a create for business environment and how we've really unlocked value.
And a lot of it has just been all of these accumulated, you know, a little bit about my background, a little bit about YPO, a little bit, probably about my personality is I have a much better. I mean, I love to win and I'm a very competitive person, but it's a, it's a real. It brings out a lot of kind of ugly umeboshi when that's all you're thinking about is how you could feed somebody or take something away from them rather than I'm just going to create something so good that people just want everything that I've got.
And, you know, when you Quintin, when you create value that way, or you create something new or do something differently than anybody has, it's just a heck of a lot more fun. So I mean, it brings energy to your teams. It's more fun personally. You don't wake up. You know, have this like an angry, competitive vibe.
I just, you know, I like to let's put it this way. I like to perform at a very high level. I don't, I would tell my younger self don't spend so much time worrying about competition.
Jack: Being really good at, what you love is part of what drives McKeel and finding what other people are really obsessed with too. I think the whole way that Hagerty approaches as you learned in the podcast, insurance as an organization is super unique because it really values what people care about.
As part of its business model and takes it into account in terms of its risk premiums. And I think it's a fascinating, yet intuitive model that really makes sense. And really reflects some of the ideology that Haggerty also has about the way he runs his own business. This next segment comes from our third episode, which is probably the episode I have to say that I really just.
Came into my own as a podcast where I really felt connected to the guest or virtual format, Olivia DeRecat, who is a writer for the new Yorker. Such an interesting creative, because I think she gets to this route that many of us feel as creative as afraid to listen to, which is the urge to go and do and take on this risk that comes on with being someone who is creative. I think about it in my own life as, as a writer and wanting to pursue that passion was also managing the capitalist society we live in. . And I think Olivia talks about this urge and really leaning in and learning from that intuition.
But also how that has shifted over time, as she's found success, she talks about the amazing goal she set and achieved in such a short timeframe because she just knew that's how it had to be. And I think it's something that is really aspirational for me. Most importantly, she's super humble about it and was a great guest.
If there's any podcast I recommend to folks when they first want to check out or hear more about my podcasts, it's this episode with Olivia. So I hope you enjoy.
Olivia: I had repurposed this calendar.
Like, you know, to save money. I had like flipped it around and drawn the months on the back of it. And it was also kind of a craft project I had drawn this this calendar for myself and I had left a little space for like goals and I wrote on it I will be published in the New Yorker and I will get paid to write.
And those are my two what are they called? I'm blanking now, not affirmations, but I guess affirmations or manifestation points
And then two months later I was published in the New Yorker, but I don't know. I think it has something to do with the will in those statements. I know this is like manifestation 101 but it didn't feel like an expectation to me. I didn't put the pressure on myself to accomplish it in a certain amount of time.
It was just this sense of I will do everything in my power to get this thing , to accomplish this. And in a sense, I believed it would happen. I did have that belief in myself, even when I had no reason to have it. Again, it's, it's interesting. I've used the word desperation already like seven times
I'm an essentially desperate person, but it did feel that way it did feel like, like I must do this. I must figure this out. And I had like a couple of of avenues and ways that I could go to, a couple of blueprints or maps to get me there, but I was just like, I will do this at some point.
I will do this. I didn't expect it to happen so soon,
Jack: That's super, super amazing that it happened within two months. Very, very well done. But I'm also curious. I mean, I really like that idea of not putting kind of the strict timeline. Jumping ahead to now, is that something you still do? Do you still put these manifestations out, say for example, with your book or are the timelines a bit more strict now that you're like, okay, this is, is my profession?
Olivia: I definitely feel more of a pressure now to just sustain what I've already built. Like stoke the fire, when you discover fire, , it's incredible, right?
When you have that first spark you feel like you're on top of the world and then you feel like you have to continue to feed it. Right. And it can't go out and can't go out. But I also think that's probably a symptom of being still a somewhat new creative person.
Because I think that things do need to die off and become reborn. I think that cyclical nature of things is probably something I need to get used to, but I'm still not fully comfortable with. Because in the beginning, any accomplishment is just radically amazing and just the mere recognition gives you all of this momentum and then at a certain point you feel like you have to, I dunno, reinvent that momentum or find it from a new place because it's not, it's not necessarily new in the way it was. Yeah, it's kind of hard to explain. I don't know. I think everybody has those issues.
Once you reach a certain milestone, then you have to deal with, or then you have to learn how to integrate all of the classic creative hurdles, like Comparison collaboration how to monetize your personal magic or whatever it is. All of these other things come into play that weren't there before, because all you cared about was just starting the fire, that's all.
It's kind of interesting. It's a new place to be.
Jack: There is just the changing natures of our goals and reaffirming what it is that we want at different stages of our creative projects or journeys or careers. And I think. This is something that's been true across all of my podcast guests who have changed as they've grown and as their projects have taken them in different directions.
One thing that hasn't changed for many creatives is the importance of mutual collaboration, it just may change who they are collaborating with over time. And I think my conversation with Molly Reeder who is a food and botanical artists based out of Richmond, Virginia, who does watercolor paintings that are just stunning of different foods and botanicals. Her work is truly awesome. I encourage you to check it out on Instagram, but also to subscribe there to her new newsletter, which she does with her mom, which features recipes and drawings each month straight to your inbox. I have gotten some of the recipes. I have tried some of the recipes and they're awesome, but also really special to see the recipes come to life in Molly's drawings.
But I think that's what Molly does so well, as you can see in her artwork is her willingness to ask for collaboration and for it to show what she has to offer to her partners as you can see in her work with Erin McDowell and Rancho Gordo. She is willing to really elevate their subjects into something that is also special to her, but put it on large scale and expose it in a new way.
So I want to share a quick clip from Molly, which talks about the mutual benefits of collaboration and how you can think about offering that it's a creative.
Molly: Well, one piece of advice I have, and that really helped me when I first started and even before I went full time just reach out to people, like if there are artists that you admire or think they're doing a good job with whatever they're doing with what they create email them and ask them.
And often times they'll write back and give you some really good advice. I think I did that a lot. I just, I reached out to people who I thought were doing a great job. No one comes to mind right now, but yeah, I just reached out to different artists and asked them how they did what they did.
I asked friends. I got my first printer recommendations for prints from a friend from New Orleans and I still use that printer. It's out of New York actually. And yeah. What else was the question? Sorry.
Jack: No, no, this is super spot on, but just on how you thought about actually making this something that was commercially viable if to use that harrowed term.
Molly: Yeah. Well, like I said, I did commissions for a long time. And so luckily at the time I was living in Charlottesville, Virginia, and the community, there is also very supportive. And so it was like very word of mouth.
And I just kept getting more and more and more, and that was amazing. And so that really supported me. And then eventually I think I just really wanted to transition to food and botanical cause that's what I was really hoping to create. And so I carved out some time to explore that.
Started really small, just, you know, even like gauged if people would be interested in prints of my artwork. And then just did that for years, a very small collection, but then when 2020 happened the pandemic, I couldn't really do commissions as easily anymore. And people weren't looking for them.
I mean, everybody was just stressed. And so I thought, well, I have this time right now where we can't really leave our house. We're in a pandemic I'm just gonna treat this like an art residency. And I created so much original work that year. I think for some creative people I've talked to it's almost like the stress of the time was stunted their creativity completely and they had blockers up. For me, it had the opposite effect. It was like, Making work and painting was my life float, and I really relied on that to give me a sense of safety and rhythm every day. And I was just lucky. I mean, at the end of that year, I had all of this original work that I could then turn into prints and didn't know if people would like it or not.
And they did. And so I think I just took this concentrated test. Really developed all of this new work and put it out there. And it's been pretty continuous since then. So I feel really lucky for that. I also will say that collaborating or even just reaching out to people who you think have similar interests to you where you can be mutually supportive to one another that also was huge for getting an audience to see my work.
Jack: How did you identify those folks who you thought might be a good match for what you were looking to do? I think that can be even challenging for me in thinking about who do I want to interview on the podcast?
Who do I think will be interesting to have a conversation with, I'm so curious to hear.
Molly: I think, , it's might sound wooey or something, but it's almost like an energetic thing. Like you just, there's certain people, you look at their social media or see them, or listen to them on a podcast.
And you're just attracted to them and their voice and their aesthetic. And so for me, I really love just my gut feeling about someone or something like, Hey, what they're doing I think is really inspiring and really cool. And I'm just going to reach out to them and tell them Hey, this is what I do. Do you have an interest in it? Obviously for me, you know, my work is focused more around food and plants, so people in that realm and I'm really interested in sustainability and using artwork as form of storytelling and preservation of certain things. So like Rancho Gordo Heirloom Beans , I think what they do is really inspiring.
And so reaching out to them and saying Hey, I want to do this big painting of your beans. Yeah. So I think that's what guided me mostly, but I will say that has probably been the most beautiful part about being a solo artist is getting to connect with these people around the work that you're making, but it's so much bigger than that, you know?
And then it's so powerful to have those kinds of support networks and collaborative efforts out there to keep you going.
Jack: And the last clip I want to share with you all today is a clip from our most recent episode with Dr. Charlan Nemeth, Charlan was Uh, fantastic guests talking about the importance of dissent, which is a topic that she has studied through her expertise in social psychology. She's a professor at Cal Berkeley, and she's done work on dissent and the way it can shape and inform our creativity for the better for several decades now. I was so grateful to have the opportunity to not only to learn about her research, but also just hear about her interesting path and getting in developing this expertise and what led her to really consider the importance of descent and diverse viewpoints. I want to share one segment from this episode, but I really encourage you to listen to it.
It's a longer conversation, but one that I've gotten a lot of great feedback from, from the folks who have listened in terms of really enjoying Dr. Nemeth, but also finding her research so applicable in their lives.
Dr. Nemeth: But, going back to that for a second about what the devil's advocate is, is that it was meant as a mechanism to improve decision-making. And a lot of, both researchers and companies use devil's advocate. I mean, they actually appoint someone as a devil's advocate or a person who choose to take it on, but it's seen as a valuable component, but the main thing, but it's more of is let me play devil's advocate.
One could say this, the opposite of that, , there could be this issue, the opposite of that, or what about this fact? So that the ideas that, that process is of some value in companies use that to, like, , hedge funds, for example, you know, that kind of thing. But, the problem with it, again, I'm trying to capsulize, a lot of the research has said.
The problem is it may be better than nothing, but it isn't anything close to as effective as dissent in terms of getting people to really rethink their positions, to, to want to look for additional information, to really consider an alternative perspectives, all the things that you want them to do to make a good decision.
It really isn't nearly as effective as actual dissent . And I think if you think about it, I'm getting a little bit ahead of story, but the research that people really paid attention to of mine, isn't so much where like dissent wins or majority's win, but it has to do with it it changes the way you think.
And so what our research showed over decades really is that majority is when you have consensus that actually closes the mind is that they're much more likely to look for corroborating information that sustains what they believe, et cetera. I mean, all of the things you don't want them to do, where as dissent actually, you may not like it, even when it's wrong is that it actually opens the mind so that you, you do actually search widely, you do consider alternatives.
That challenge, in fact, it's enormously not only invigorating, but it causes you to think the way, if you had the power, you'd want people to think, to make good decisions. That challenge is really good, but it's premised really not on, which is why I think it's not the reason. I think it's so much more important than devil's advocate is that an authentic to center, you know, That to some extent he or she's paying price for that position. Okay. And that's compelling. There's an authentic, if you see them as authentic and it helps if they're paying a price for it with no clear advantage, you don't see anything they're getting out of it.
That has enormous power. You know, you think about it like martyrs back to more religious connotation. People willing to die for their ideas. You may think they're nuts, but you know, you don't dismiss it. You don't there must be something to it that could lead to that behavior. And all I'm saying is it has a compelling quality to it.
Jack: Right.
Dr. Nemeth: And so when someone actually dissents , , it does have that stimulating effect on the mind for good we're devil's advocate doesn't do that nearly as well. And it's because it's pretend dissent . And so I hate it when I see people on the news, so many of the interviewers who are getting a little bit boring, you know, one question they ask is, well, how do you feel?
And I thought, asked me how I feel when my father just died, how you feel? It's not exactly, but you know, the one that's going to open you up. Right. And so, but apart from that, one of the standard questions or statements really is sort of like any statement you'd make people then will say, well, let me play devil's advocate.
And I always makes me smile because they always preface it because they're basically saying this is not what I really believe. I'm just sort of intellectually trying to be, even handed. And somehow that always misses because it's more like, well, what do you believe? Why don't you argue with what I'm saying from the perspective you think is right?
Why are you game-playing intellectually? I'm just saying that's me. So I get an emotional reaction, but also you see is that . I don't want to think that's the way that people really rethink what they're doing. It's not pure information. It's not like, well, because you plop another point of view on paper, or you have someone say it who doesn't necessarily believe it.
It doesn't have the power to really affect the way you come to the issue or make decisions where authentic dissent does. And the beauty of it, which I love is that our studies over and over again, say it has that quality, that impact even when it's wrong. So we often think, well, dissent only adds value when it has happened to be correct nobody else noticed it. I mean, that's easy way to say, you know, dissent pat on the head, the tough part is selling the point, which I do, is that , even if you think he's nuts and even if he is wrong, the fact is, is that, that process you still benefit from it's recognizing that, that makes people open then to a community that allows its expression, which is back to one of your questions I know you'll want to pursue, which is, it's, it's very hard to speak up and so you need to create a culture or you need the leaders to behave in such a way in which there is, you can use the term safety not necessarily total, total safety, but where there's a sense of value and that you're not going to get killed.
Right. And you're not going to be useless. And so there are many ways to create that so that people are more willing to speak up. But I think you start with the recognition that it's important to speak up, even if you're wrong. And that is not immediately something people say, well, I get that and I already agree with it.
Sometimes people read the book and they'll say, oh, I liked it because I agreed with each point, it's sort of like, well, I would hope that what you learned in the book was something that you wouldn't necessarily have agreed with or known ahead of time. Right, right. Got you to think.
Jack: Dr. Nemeth is just another example of the great diversity of thought that I have been able to bring to the podcast, which I think she would be proud of given her expertise, but is also just. Uh, fascinating research that she has committed herself to. And I'm so interested in this field of creativity, but also the many ways in which different areas of expertise can interact with us.
And after our talk together, I think I've just become more interested in the research and associated research on what promotes creativity and an individual or an environment. I am really thankful again for her time. I think it's been such an interesting journey and learn so much from her and from all of our guests.
If you've enjoyed this podcast so far, I really encourage you to share some of the lessons you've learned as well. As always feel free to reach out to me directly, , via Instagram, the email, and continue to subscribe and listen to the podcasts. Really appreciate the notes that I've gotten so far that have been so encouraging and also for the recommendations that have helped me connect with new potential guests.
As I look forward to the next 10 episodes. I look forward to making each say a day to make with all of you.
